DEI in the Time of Backlash — Why Wicked Hits Different Right Now
Watch this episode on Spotify and YouTube, or listen on Apple and iHeart
Everyone deserves a chance to fly! You know Wicked as a story of friendship, but do you know it as a story of Pipeline Warriors? Smashing inequitable barriers to entry, denouncing false meritocracy, allyship against systemic power hoarding – it’s all there! The deeply, deeply embedded DEI themes in Wicked make it one of our favorite cultural icons and one of our favorite movies to unpack together as a team. So today we bring you that conversation complete with our love for Wicked and all of our best takes about why this is THE movie for DEIB in our time.
Sh*t People Really Say to Us about DEIB
Watch on YouTube. Listen on Apple, Spotify and iHeart.
“You’re not helping Black people by helping them get jobs that they’re not qualified for.” “Community college students are too low-skill to benefit from pipeline programs.” “You’re doing ‘skin deep’ diversity and that’s not fair, just pick the best person for the job.”
These are just a few examples of things people have actually said to our faces. Sometimes it’s so off-base, so clueless that we’re just lost for words.
One skill that every DEIB practitioner builds is keeping composure in a micro-aggression moment like this, taking a deep breath, and taking a step back to reframe the issue by calling out biased assumptions and correcting the record. Sometimes these are moments of opportunity to claim the narrative and educate the people around us. Sometimes they are moments to center our own well-being and avoid draining our cup with someone who does not want to change.
It’s all part of a larger DEIB skillset that we unpack in today’s episode, which is really about what to do – what we do, because it happens all the time – when people say wild sh*t to us about DEIB.
9AM Is Too Early for Hate Mail
Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube Music and iHeart
When a hateful voicemail message hurtled out of the clear blue sky to explode on Tanya’s sunshine-y Saturday, we knew that the kind of hate we fight against had come right up to our doorstep. This wasn’t ODEIB’s first experience with shameful hate mail, but it was the first time that we had been targeted with a message of explicit violence.
We were all shaken up, there’s no way around that. In that numb moment of pain and bewilderment, the crew decided to process and heal together by talking through our emotions and reactions. And we knew we wanted to document that process for you, our listeners, in order to model the way that we draw on community and self-care to sustain ourselves in the most harrowing moments of DEI work.
We’re making sweet lemonade with some pretty rotten lemons today. Tanya said it best right on this episode: “We’re gonna take that hate, we’re gonna hug it and love it, and we’re gonna turn it into love and education for the rest of the world. This is how you turn obstacles into opportunities.”
Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube Music and iHeart
Everyone thinks they know what DEI is. But the disagreements over what DEI is, what it should do, and how it should be done stretch far into the past. Far before the attacks on DEI that characterize this moment in 2025.
On this episode of the podcast we continue wrestling with our own attitudes towards these foundational questions by unpacking what, for us, constitutes the worst of the DEI that we’ve seen as well as the most heinous of the mischaracterizations that are gaining traction right now. It’s all the hollow DEI work that we’ll actually be waving a happy goodbye to even as we mourn the end of many vital DEI programs that we admired. No goals, no metrics, no fact-checks, no spine. This is what “boo boo doo doo DEI” efforts have in common.
Back to Our Roots: What Is DEI, Really?
Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube Music and iHeart
In the first episode of Building Belonging season two, ODEIB dives deep into the fundamental question: What is DEI really? With the haters circling and pushback in full force, a lot of people are returning to this question to understand how to move justice forward.
The team explores their individual journeys into DEI and what it means to them. As Eli puts it, this conversation seeks to address ‘what DEI is, what it is not, where it is going, and who our allies are,’ clearing up misconceptions and providing a nuanced understanding of essential concepts.
Tanya highlights the innate human essence of DEI, saying, ‘At its core, it is one of the most innate and human things that we have.’ Angie drives home the practical importance of DEI: ‘It’s everything that makes the world more accessible to everyone.’ By offering their personal insights and discussing the broader significance of DEI, the team aims to inspire listeners to open their eyes to new opportunities and get involved in this transformative work.
A Seat at the Table for Foreign-Trained Attorneys
Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube Music and iHeart
Malaysian/British trained attorney, Christina Chelliah, connects with the Office to explore the complicated journey a foreign-trained attorney must embark on to practice law in the United States. The plight of establishing oneself in the legal profession continues to be a hard-fought challenge even after being admitted to the Bar. Join Tanya, Angie & Mary Ellen as they speak with Ms. Chelliah about her legal training, career trajectory, and her transition to the US legal system. From there, the conversation looks to the future, exploring what an inclusive legal landscape might look like with more intentional in-roads for foreign-trained attorneys.
Able to Make Change at Any Age
Listen on Apple, Spotify, Google and iHeart
Today it’s time for a dose of inspiration because we’re talking to a group of young activists who have joined the fight for racial justice and equity. The ABLE initiative was started by a group of high school students. It uses art merchandise to donate to five organizations aiding the Black Lives Matter movement, encouraging youth volunteers to become active changemakers in their communities. ODEIB talked to ABLE leaders about how they launched ABLE and overcame pushback even from within their own families. It was an object lesson in making the kind of change you want to see in the world. We are so proud of these DEIB leaders and they gave us a touch of much-needed faith in the power of community, truth-telling and empathy in change work. We all have a thing or two to learn or re-learn from the young leaders of ABLE.
Learn more about ABLE and support their work.
Join ODEIB’s 21 Day Antiracism Challenge
Access a transcript of this episode here: https://bit.ly/3UzkRgE
Alternative Paths to Belonging
Listen on Apple, Spotify, Google and iHeart
In this episode of Building Belonging we talk to a few folks who have found their belonging by exploring alternative career paths outside the law. Margaret Segreti and Sam Choi join us from Bloomberg to discuss their personal journey from being practicing lawyers to discovering unanticipated roles in data analysis. Margaret and Sam emphasize the importance of being open to taking systematic, informed risks and embracing non-traditional roles when marketing yourself. They also share their expertise on developing artificial intelligence tools in a way that mitigates bias and incorporates DEI principles from step one.
Tune in to learn more about:
- The challenges and rewards of shifting gears mid-career
- How to approach marketing yourself when you are looking to make a change
- Navigating bias in the design and build of artificial intelligence tools
- The day-to-day work life of a JD that is not practicing law
Access a transcript of this episode here: https://bit.ly/3tO7qhS
DEIB for the People – a Collection of DEIB Content for Your Screens
Mary Ellen – Little Justice Leaders
Angie – One Night in Miami
Tanya – Black Girls Play: The Story of Handgames
Is the Legal Profession Making Good on Its Mental Health Promises?
Listen on Apple, Spotify, Google and iHeart
Building Belonging is joined by Eileen Travis, Executive Director of the City Bar Lawyer Assistance Program. Eileen has thirty years’ experience in mental-health services and has been part of the spearhead of the legal profession’s growing awareness of and respect for mental health and well-being. Eileen has great insight to share about the history of how the legal profession has dealt with mental health and well-being issues. She explained how shifting attitudes haven’t always led to substantial shifts in a culture that drives lawyers to burnout. But Eileen also shared her experience of progress being made by a new Gen Z workforce that is driving some of the well-being culture changes that the profession needs.
Tune in to hear more about:
- How the landscape of mental health in the legal profession was dramatically changed by a groundbreaking ABA report (linked below)
- How the legal profession has succeeded in producing more mental-health resources without always giving lawyers meaningful opportunities to utilize those resources
- How LAP has worked to change the character and fitness process to be less stigmatizing and more compassionate
- The history of Lawyers Assistance Programs in New York and around the world, and how they built a foundation for wellness programs in the legal profession today
The Path to Lawyer Well-Being: Practical Recommendations for Positive Change (aka the Krill Report): https://bityl.co/MRc6
DEIB for the People – a Collection of DEIB Content for Your Screens
Mary Ellen – Tips for Consuming Social Media with Intention
Tanya – “The Egg,” (https://ytube.io/3mxh) “Dissatisfaction” (https://ytube.io/3mxg) and “Loneliness” (https://ytube.io/3mxi) by Kurz gesagt
Angie – When They See Us (https://bityl.co/MRJq)
Access a transcript of this episode here: https://bityl.co/MRe2
Listen on Apple, Spotify or Google
The ODEIB crew debriefs their 2023 summer interns: Eliana Cortez, Deynna Rey Tovar, Valentina Raghib Charry and Arantxa Galvan. It’s a bit of a love fest because these women really became part of the ODEIB family in their time with us. We are so proud of the work that they accomplished and of the passion that they display. Eliana, Deynna, Valentina and Arantxa are a vision of the future of DEIB that we are very excited to usher into the legal profession. They’re also a case study for successful internships. So hit that play button and hear what they have to say!
Access a transcript of this episode
DEIB for the People – a Collection of DEIB Content for Your Screens
Tanya – White Women, by Regina Jackson and Saira Rao
Angie – Deconstructing Karen
Mary Ellen – Recognizing the Inherent Bias Within the Legal Profession and Identifying Your Relationship with It (CLE Program Coming Soon)
The Legal Accountability Project
Listen on Apple, Spotify or Stitcher
Aliza Shatzman is President and Founder of the Legal Accountability Project, a nonprofit aimed at extending support and resources to law clerks to ensure that they have a positive clerkship experience. Aliza talks about the mistreatment that she experienced as a law clerk. Her experience led her to discover the shocking lack of labor protections for clerks and the enormous power disparity between clerks and judges. Aliza was ultimately inspired to take on the deeply entrenched status quo in the clerking system. Tune in to hear about:
- The power dynamic that exists today which gives judges the power to mistreat clerks and potentially derail their clerks’ careers
- How law schools and their clerkship offices have been complicit in protecting bad actors and withholding information about bad judges from clerkship applicants
- How Aliza has improved accountability for judges and raised awareness in the community of law clerks
- What law clerks experiencing mistreatment can do to get help
- What changes need to be made to improve working conditions for clerks
- The centralized clerkship database created by the Legal Accountability Project that democratizes information about judges and clerkships
You can read Aliza’s testimony to the House Committee on the Judiciary here: https://bityl.co/K6EO
DEIB for the People – a Collection of DEIB Content for Your Screens
Mary Ellen – Radical Queer Witches
Angie – Women Talking
Tanya – Wednesday: a recommendation to watch and to investigate bias: (https://bityl.co/K6Ei)
Recession-Proofing Commitments to DEIB
Listen on Apple, Google, Spotify or Stitcher
Ankura Consulting Group is a management consulting firm with over two thousand employees advising corporations in various industries and sectors e.g. cybersecurity, construction, litigation and human resources. Shawn Miles’ and Patricia Rodriguez’s social-impact team helps companies ask themselves difficult questions about their own environments and values so that they can make sure that their people feel accepted, welcome and able to show up as themselves.
Patricia and Shawn speak about being intentional with Belonging, about building strategies and spaces for people to be honest and sometimes uncomfortable. They helped us understand the ways in which building psychological safety to get things wrong can be tantamount to building psychological safety to really try and get things right.
The Building Belonging crew carries this idea into a discussion about how to persevere in the face of an “anti-woke” movement that seeks to co-opt and undermine DEIB ideals. Tanya, Angie and Mary Ellen talk with Shawn and Patricia about how to be prepared for “anti-woke” arguments that are made in bad faith and how to keep the DEIB conversation going on a productive track. They also delve into the implications of these strategies in the political atmosphere of anti-woke, anti-DEIB regulations.
The data shows that organizations that succeed in DEIB also outperform their competitors financially. Patricia and Shawn talk about how improving DEIB improves organizational decision-making and makes companies more responsive to increasingly-diverse customer bases. Nevertheless, when recession happens and businesses need to make cuts, DEIB initiatives are often first on the block. Shawn and Patricia shared some of the talking points and strategies that they have used to remind companies that DEIB is good for long-term, sustainable growth as well as for retention of the top talent.
DEIB for the People – a Collection of DEIB Content for Your Screens
Angie – Milk
Mary Ellen – So You Want to Talk about Race?
Tanya – Overruling Grutter: What Does Ending Affirmative Action Mean for Voluntary DEI Workplace; Register here for the July 13 event in this series: What Does the Supreme Court’s Opinion on Affirmative Action Mean for Diversity Initiatives & the Pipeline to Law Firms & Financial Institutions?
Listen on Apple, Google, Spotify or Stitcher
Justice Rolando Acosta shares his story of growing up in the Dominican Republic and coming to New York at 14, finding opportunities by excelling academically and on the baseball field, and choosing the law and going to work at Legal Aid as a way of paying back the help that had been given to his family.
Justice Acosta and his daughter Zila Acosta-Grimes compare notes on their upbringing and their privileges, and how they have learned to use privilege as power.
Justice Acosta remembers for us his time building the Dominican community in Washington Heights and Inwood by building up social service infrastructure like Alianza Dominicana and Community Association of Progressive Dominicans alongside other community leaders like Adriano Espaillat and Dr. Raphael Lantigua.
Justice Acosta also shares insights about the challenges of making change happen at the institutional level, delving into his own efforts to modernize the Appellate Division First Department while he was Presiding Justice.
Justice Acosta talked with the ODEIB team about the importance of representation not just in the workplace and the boardroom, but in institutions of justice and as a building block of the rule of law.
DEIB for the People – a Collection of DEIB Content for Your Screens
Mary Ellen: #DoTheWork from writer/activist Rachel Cargle
Tanya: Ru Paul’s Drag Race
Angie: Crip Camp – Streaming
Pyschological Safety, Emotional Agility and Energy Management for Lawyers
Listen on Apple, Google, Spotify or Stitcher
Tanya, Angie and Mary Ellen speak with Julie Bosi and Valery Federici of Level Up Legal.
They talk about coaching in the legal industry and the way that the skills of the law can run counter to the skills of well-being, and how the work of building emotional well-being dovetails with the work of DEIB.
Tune in to hear about:
- How coaching works in the context of the legal profession
- How coaching is tailored to each individual lawyer
- Combating negativity bias
- Building psychological safety to break down systems of oppression
The Diversity Gap in the Legal Pipeline
Listen on Apple, Google, Spotify or Stitcher
Tanya, Angie and Mary Ellen speak with Julie Bosi and Valery Federici of Level Up Legal.
They talk about coaching in the legal industry and the way that the skills of the law can run counter to the skills of well-being, and how the work of building emotional well-being dovetails with the work of DEIB.
Tune in to hear about:
- How coaching works in the context of the legal profession
- How coaching is tailored to each individual lawyer
- Combating negativity bias
- Building psychological safety to break down systems of oppression
Everything, Everywhere But Not All At Once
Listen on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify or Stitcher.
Tanya Martinez-Gallinucci, Executive Director of the Office for Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Belonging; Angie Avila, ODEIB Manager of Development and Communications; and Mary Ellen La Rosa, ODEIB Diversity & Inclusion Coordinator; speak with Lissette Duran, Senior ESG Associate at Paul Weiss.
Lissette shares her experience of being lifted up in the journey of her career; how she has claimed a place in new spaces even while embracing her identity; and how she has safeguarded her sense of identity in the spaces that she chooses.
Make an impact by being a part of our work:
Join the City Bar (admission fee waived) using this membership form: bit.ly/3qEJqbV
Join a City Bar committee: bit.ly/3xqT8SI
Sign up for our newsletter to keep up on all ODEIB programs, events, and news: bit.ly/3qE5raK
Uptown by Independent Music Licensing Collective (IMLC) is licensed under a Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Empowering Communities with Affinity Groups
Listen on Apple, Google, Spotify or Stitcher.
Tanya, Angie and Mary Ellen speak with Zila Acosta Grimes, Associate at Debevoise & Plimpton.
Zila’s roots in New York’s Latinx community and legal community run deep. She shares her own immersive upbringing in those communities, and shares her playbook for building affinity groups that make inclusive and powerful spaces for communities not traditionally represented in the law.
Make an impact by being a part of our work:
Join the City Bar (admission fee waived) using this membership form: bit.ly/3qEJqbV
Join a City Bar committee: bit.ly/3xqT8SI
Sign up for our newsletter to keep up on all ODEIB programs, events, and news: bit.ly/3qE5raK
A DEI Practitioner’s Perspective
Listen on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify or Stitcher.
Tanya, Angie and Mary Ellen speak with Yusuf Zakir, Chief Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Officer at Davis Wright Tremaine.
Yusuf shares his own journey into the DEIB space, the ways in which he invites colleagues into that space, and the way in which he has developed his firm’s approach to DEIB.
Make an impact by being a part of our work:
Join the City Bar (admission fee waived) using this membership form: https://bit.ly/3qEJqbV
Join a City Bar committee: https://bit.ly/3xqT8SI
Sign up for our newsletter to keep up on all ODEIB programs, events, and news: https://bit.ly/3qE5raK
Professionalism as a Racial Construct
Listen on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify or Stitcher.
Tanya Martinez-Gallinucci, ODEIB Executive Director, Angie Avila, ODEIB Manager of Development and Communications, and Mary Ellen La Rosa, ODEIB Diversity & Inclusion Coordinator speak with Leah Goodridge about her article Professionalism as a Racial Construct and discuss how “professionalism” is used to subjugate marginalized groups.
Read Leah’s Article “Professionalism as a Racial Construct”: bit.ly/3DtLeMh
Make an impact by being a part of our work:
Join the City Bar (admission fee waived) using this membership form: bit.ly/3qEJqbV
Join a City Bar committee: bit.ly/3xqT8SI
Sign up for our newsletter to keep up on all ODEIB programs, events, and news: bit.ly/3qE5raK
Uptown by Independent Music Licensing Collective (IMLC) is licensed under a Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.